Forums >> Community >> Newbies >> Windows, Walls, Trim

kevinmichelson

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Hello all,

I have been struggling for too long now.  I am trying to create or download, moreso understand, if I can create a window for a typical wood frame construction.

Normal construction methodology starts with a 2x6 stud wall, then a 1/2" plywood sheathing -> membrane -> windows -> trim -> siding.

So I am trying to get the window to lock to the exterior of the 1/2" plywood.  I do not think this is working with different flavor wall assemblies.

Also, ideally the exterior siding stops at the end of the trim rather than the window opening.  Often the trim and the siding materials are different (i.e. wrapping does not seem to be an option).  I am not seeing a means to stop the siding, that is attached to the wall assembly, at the trim.

The inside situation appears to be reasonable because finish trim is generally applied to the wall's finished surface.

Another note,  ADT had the ability to create a window assembly that I could place casements, awnings, fixed, in almost any arrangement, or stand alone.  I assume I would need to create the super window assembly family with endless nested windows, arrangements, muntin paterns, etc..... Or has someone did all the work already.

Thanks,

Kevin Michelson

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rkitect

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Joined: Thu, Dec 16, 2004
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There are a couple of options for pulling some of this off... obviously, if you create a constraint that locks a window to the 1/2" dimension, you're going to find that it doesn't work with wall assemblies that have a 5/8" or 3/4" sheathing assembly.  So you can make a parameter that is adjustable (manually, but none the less adjustable.  Unfortunately, walls can not pass information to the window families in revit) and control this constraint manually from wall type to wall type.  In the attached family you'll notice that I didn't actually place a window, but instead placed a reference plane to represent where the window would be locked to.  I did this because I wasn't sure which part of the windo you actually wanted locked to the sheathing of the wall.

The same applies to the stopping of the siding on the exterior of the wall; you can create a void shape that cuts into the wall the same thickness as the eterior layer of the wall.  Have the void cut the host in the family editor and it will do this in the project when you load it.  Doing this you have to remove the opening because you can not have an opening and a void cut in the same host.  So you'll notice in the family that there is a void cut that cuts the host instead of an opening cut.

Take a look at the attached family for an idea of the practices I am reffering to.  Family is a 2008 model.

HTH, GL!

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Carl - rkitecsure[at]gmail.com

Need help? I'm probably in my chat room!

You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is never get involved in a land war in asia, but only slightly less well known is this! Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!

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kevinmichelson

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Joined: Thu, May 29, 2008
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rkitect,

Thanks for the response.  The void shape would definitely resolve the trim to siding issues.  With regards to the window locked to the sheathing, I think about the location of the nailing fin with respect to the window.  I was able to place an initial reference plane on the outer edge of the sheathing no matter what the thickness.  Once I changed the wall style to something without the sheathing, I received the message that I would need to remove the constraint.  So that technique would only work as long as the wall style has some sheathing layer.

I am curious what you think of my other comment.  I have found that designing a window that will serve my purposes takes a fair amount of time.  We normally design various different combinations of different windows.  I have found that going from a single casement to a double casement is not as easy as I would prefer.  So, if I am to take this to the level I expect, creating some combination window may take me way longer than is reasonable.

I assume that I am missing some underlying theme that will enable me to create 8-10 different types of windows in a day once I have the design elements I am looking for in one single casement.

Thoughts?

Kevin Michelson

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rkitect

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Joined: Thu, Dec 16, 2004
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The theme would be practice and experience

Family creation in revit is not something someone should expect to just pick up and make it work right out of the box with 0 family creation experience in revit.  It's like a new game when you were a kid, when you first started playing, you probably broke some rules so it took longer to win a few rounds.  Once you learned those rules and how to break them and get away with it, you win much more frequently and faster

As far as the restraints issue.  Can you send me the model of the windo you are working on?  I can look at it and see why it is giving you that issue.  A good practice to start when working on wall based families is to create a new wall type so that you can test the flexing before you load it into a project.  You do this by selecting the wall in the family editor, go into its properties, select edit/new, duplicate, edit the structure and make a wall that is thicker/narrower than the one already there (I usually do a 2' wall).  OK out of all the windows.  Select the wall then select your new wall type from the type selction window.  If you get no errors, then the constraint will work 99% of the time in a project.  I have had the occasional 'WTF' error that I has caused me to start again from scratch when it just didn't work in the project despite working in the family editor.

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Carl - rkitecsure[at]gmail.com

Need help? I'm probably in my chat room!

You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is never get involved in a land war in asia, but only slightly less well known is this! Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!

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kevinmichelson

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rkitect,

Again, thanks for the response.  I understand how the concept of practice and experience can eventually ease the pain over time.  Attached is the window I was working on.  I have yet to try the void extrusion because I would need 4 of them, one for each piece of trim.

One side note.  While walking to work this morning I thought of a means to set up a window family that begins with just the frame.  The frame would be set up similar to the nested muntin family whereby I could adjust the number of openings and the sizes.  I would nest a casement, fixed, awning, or a double-hung within the frame family.  I could place the nested windows within the desired frame openings.  Each window would have the nested muntin pattern to adjust the muntins.  Going back to the frame, I could create a trim package as desired.

While using ADT in the past, I used a window assembly to create even a single casement.  My schedules always reference the assemblies.  This way I could create and schedule almost any combination of window one could think of.

Please tell me someone at Autodesk has already implemented something similar to what I have described above for Revit.  I do not yet have the skills to set up what I have described, but I see that it would be worth the time and effort for all future projects.

Thoughts?

Kevin

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rkitect

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Joined: Thu, Dec 16, 2004
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The biggest problem with this theory in the practice of Revit is that the components in Revit are far more than "This group of lines is a casement that can b eplaced in this frame...etc."  Modeling components in Revit should be approached the same way a product catalogue is setup for manufacturers.  If the window model A comes with options A.1, A.2 and A.3, then it would be a good idea (if possible) to model all three of those options into the family.  The family then has manufacturer, model # and spec information built into the family (if  done properly).  Now, I know you're probably thinking "I just need a generic do all window that will go into a wall and can meet all my window needs."  Well, you're not going to find "Generic 1-fits-all window on any Contractor reciepts.  The idea behind Revit and ultimately BIM is to be able to place that Anderson window into the wall and see what the rough opening needs to be according to the specs of the manufacturer</soapbox>

That being said, what you want to accomplish (while containing the recipeit for complication and disaster) is very much posible.  There are a lot of on/off (or yes/no in formula speak) that would be required for the different options you want to nest into a single family; and you'll most likely have to fudge some of the modeling techniques, but we'll take a look at it.

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Carl - rkitecsure[at]gmail.com

Need help? I'm probably in my chat room!

You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is never get involved in a land war in asia, but only slightly less well known is this! Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!

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